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Thank you

Gary responded:

To be sure. But can you entertain a distinction
between...

(1) a theoretical text (about language, mind..) that
*proposes* "this is how it works" and is evaluated by
observation, test and measurement, in contrast to

(2) a text that invents a root metaphor for thinking
about what we mean by mind, language, and observation.

The way I see it. Early on, LW was committed to simple
objects (not actual tables and chairs) as primary. The
root metaphor is forms.

Later, he shifted to events, e.g., meaning as use and
practices.

This constitutes a shift ontological commitment. But
such commitments have no bearing on "salt passing" or
"cat and mouse."

bruce

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In a message dated 10/5/02 9:48:19 AM, Bruce writes:

Are there two alternatives, Bruce? I'm sure you would agree
that there are many alternatives and combinations of alternatives.

My own view is that the later Wittgenstein was doing what he said
he was doing, which was to write an incomplete descriptive natural
history. In doing that, he employed some similes. For
example, he compared the practices of language to a
set of carpenter's tools.

We've gone over this often. We should agree that we disagree
and move to something else.

Best,

Gary

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          -- Goethe (FAUST 1)
         -- Wittgenstein (ON CERTAINTY)

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Guess we should. But the same problem continually
reappears. You talk of old philo problems being swept
aside. I guess a "natural history" has no use for
them.

Who else has written natural histories?

bruce

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What's wrong with nomenclaturism?

Clearly, ostensive definitions are commonplace, but,
obviously, not the exclusive means for defining a
word. Yet, as LW goes to great pains to show,
ostensive defining, to work, requires a web of
understanding that cannot be defined ostensively.

I point to a tree and say "tree." This gesture would
be meaningless to a six month old. Only a child who
knows how the world of things can be named, has a
linguistic sense, can be taught in this manner.

But, as I've insisted, LW is not interested in
theories of language acquisition. Augustine's account
troubles him for other reasons. It's the
transcendentalism.

One can say that A's picture of parents naming things
is echoing the theology of the Book of Genesis. God
names things without names one at a time. Each thing
is a unique object, a natural kind, separate from any
other. This line of thought invites the scepticism of
isolated minds and unique meanings.

LW abandons the implicit transcendentalism (the
speaker outside language, contacting an unnamed object
and inventing the word from thought) suggested by A
and still present in Kant. Though, it is K's
principles, not a being that lies outside of language.

In contrast, one finds LW's notion of immanence, of
always being within language, borrowing and grafting
meanings held collectively. His is a philosophy not of
principles (rules written in a language absent
ambiguity and misinterpretation.

bruce

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In a message dated 10/6/02 6:06:23 AM, Bruce writes:

Even better, what is nomenclaturism? I don't find the term in
my Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy.

I'd rather not comment again on your interpretation of
Wittgenstein.

The notion that we are always within language is fading English department
postmodernism. As far as I know, it's never been considered a serious
claim in philosophy. We've discussed this before. Perhaps someone
else has a more enlightened comment.

Best,

Gary

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Odd that you should say that.  In my view, the idea that human knowledge is
crucially dependent on concepts (which are themselves tightly linked to
language) is the thrust of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and much other
philosophical work.  Isn't it rather self evident that even if there is something
that is not contained within language, we can't talk about it?  

Best regards, Martin

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--- Martin N Brampton

The notion that "we are always within language" can be
reconciled with (or made distinct from) the idea that
"human knowledge is crucially dependent on concepts."

You need text!

Which goes to show that a philosophy of isolated
propositions hangs in mid air.

bruce

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Gary asked:

Bruce replied:

But that is not what LW attributes to Augustine.

What he attributes
to Augustine is a belief that infants are born with certain amount of
language in place and then use this language to reason with and so to learn a
native language. The main language act that Augustine mentions is that
of children learning the names of objects ostensively. Wittgenstein
disagrees with this, as you say. But his reason for disagreeing is
that he does not believe that infants are born with a primitive language that
they use to learn how ostensive definitions work or to learn
a native language. He does not believe that ostensive
definitions can work until after certain other language skills are learned.

LW is also concerned here with other mistakes he believes that
Augustine has made, but I won't drone on.

The question of whether material objects exist before humans
name them is a separate matter.

As far as I know -- being inexpert -- there are three or more positions on
that matter.

1. Some form of Idealism, including linguistic idealism, nominalism and
so on.

2. Some form of Realism  

3. Wittgenstein's dismissal of Idealism and Realism.

Okay, the question is, what is wrong with nomenclaturism,
"the notion that there is a world of objects waiting to
be labeled with words"? Well, let's drop the second part,
because most material objects don't wait (only animals
wait). The philosophical problem seems to be with the first
part: "There is a world of objects" that exist
independent of human minds or language.

What can we say about that claim that makes sense?

Best,

Gary

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         -- Wittgenstein (ON CERTAINTY)

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